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Romanticizing Hunter Gatherers?
(Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:49:42 +0000, 09:49 PM)KyXen Wrote:
Odin Wrote:I think lots of people would love to be able to live without money in western urban capitalist city centers, given current social and economic conditions. If you think it's possible, please offer workshops on how to do it. I will be the first to sign up.

(Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:49:42 +0000, 09:49 PM)KyXen Wrote: It depends on the style of life you wish to live. Personally, I like my creature comforts and mod cons, therefore, I require money to sustain this lifestyle. However, others do not wish for these. I knew a man who lived on the street corner in Tel Aviv. He found shelter wherever his whim took him, he ate from the garbage cans and clothed himself the same way. He defecated and pissed in the gutter on the side of the street. There is a veteran of the Gulf wars that lives on the streets of Tehran and gains food, clothes and shelter from benefactors. Where there's a will there's a way.

I can guarantee you the people you mentioned are not living completely without any money at all. Which was your claim.

Even the poorest people in India have a rupee or two pass through their hands at some point.

Money is not optional under current socio-economic conditions in western industrial societies. You cannot 'choose' to do without it entirely.

(Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:49:42 +0000, 09:49 PM)KyXen Wrote: If civilisation acts collectively, what does it act collectively with? Capitals do not act collectively, they act in competition with one another. The proletariat acts collectively in opposition to capitalist civilisation.

Capitalists act collectively with their own workers and with other capitalists (suppliers, contractors, etc). Capitalists also often work collectively with governments (e.g. partnerships).

(Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:49:42 +0000, 09:49 PM)KyXen Wrote: People are not acting collectively to destroy Syria, national and inter-national states, in competition with one another, are destroying and displacing labour and capital.

There are people working together to destroy Syria, so they can get rich by rebuilding it. It's called disaster capitalism.
Alexander, you keep insisting I am 'misrepresenting' and 'misconstruing' Krishnamurti, all the while failing to say exactly how.

I don't think I am, but perhaps I am missing something. If you would like to explicate where my misunderstanding lies, please feel free to start a thread where we can hash this out, rather than making drive-by assertions.
Odin Wrote:I can guarantee you the people you mentioned are not living completely without any money at all.

You can guarantee me nothing of the sort. I have met both these gentlemen and both have no need for monetary exchange. I myself have subsisted in this world for periods of time with no recourse to money.

Odin Wrote:Capitalists act collectively with their own workers and with other capitalists...

Capitals exploit their labour force and compete with other capitals.

Odin Wrote:It's called disaster capitalism.

Or simply, "capitalism"

Marx Wrote:These contradictions lead to explosions, cataclysms, crises, in which by momentaneous suspension of labour and annihilation of a great portion of capital the latter is violently reduced to the point where it can go on.
(Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:59:50 +0000, 09:59 AM)KyXen Wrote: You can guarantee me nothing of the sort. I have met both these gentlemen and both have no need for monetary exchange. I myself have subsisted in this world for periods of time with no recourse to money.

I have met both these men too, and I can assure you, they do occasionally use money. Don't you just love the internet!

(Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:59:50 +0000, 09:59 AM)KyXen Wrote:
Odin Wrote:Capitalists act collectively with their own workers and with other capitalists...

Capitals exploit their labour force and compete with other capitals.

In order to produce anything, capitalists and workers need to work together collectively. This collective activity happens whether or not the labour force is exploited. Businesses work with other businesses to manufacture, produce, distribute, and sell their products, each of which is made, assembled, and shipped by numerous other business. Only businesses who sell the same general kinds of products or services compete with each other. Some businesses have monopolies, and some services are done only by the government. Everything that is made in modern industrial societies is made collectively (and I don't mean in the 'worker collective' sense, I just mean in the colloquial sense of a group of people working together).

(Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:59:50 +0000, 09:59 AM)KyXen Wrote:
Odin Wrote:It's called disaster capitalism.

Or simply, "capitalism"

True. But there are variations of capitalism.
Yes, you are right about the integrated or collective nature of capitalism/civilisation, whereas primitive society permits autonomous communities, capitalism has a tendency to preclude autonomy.

Also, the acquiescence of the labour force towards capital is a necessary feature for the normal running of capitalism and something that needs to end for civilisation/capitalism to be transcended.

Again, you are right to talk about different types/phases of capitalism. I think good examples would be New Orleans immediately after the hurricane and Haiti after the earthquake, most recently in my memory. Then, certain rules for running things go out the window as do proletarian survival methods. Ultimately however, capitalism, if we are to use that term, refers to one system around the world that complies with one dynamic and has a tendency to homogenise in the course of its history.

I took your position — that there is no means to survive without money — in an argument with a friend and she retorted that I was talking shite and that in advanced capitalist society there is always waste to eat, cloth and shelter ourselves and if not there's always the penal institute where I can again assure you money is not necessary. To occasionally use money when it falls into one's palm does not make it an absolute necessity.

And what about children and respected people in a community (a sadhu or my ex pilot friend in Tehran). Large numbers of these do without money because their wants and needs are provided by family or guardians.

You assume a gloomy picture that is not based on experience but on what the bourgeois media would like you to believe.
Your friend is correct, in the sense that there is waste and charity one can take advantage of. You can do this for a little while. But over the long term, because you aren't eating properly, are sleeping irregularly or sleeping in the cold, your immune system starts to weaken. You get sick, or have a toothache, and at some point, you need to buy medicine. You can't afford a prescription for antibiotics, so you get sicker and die. Or you can't afford treatment or medication for an infected ingrown toenail, so you hobble around and get weaker, and die from complications from it. Or you get tuberculosis or pneumonia from another homeless person at the shelter. Or you get stabbed by another homeless person trying to rob you (because they think you have some cash on you). Or you lose something you need (like a pair of glasses, or socks, etc) and have to replace them right away.

You can survive...for a while...without using any money at all. But at some point, you're going to have to buy something. In my experience, and from other homeless people I've known and talked to, it's usually only a matter of months. Every homeless person I've ever known or talked to has needed to use money at some point to survive. That's why they are always looking for pop cans or other things they can exchange for a little cash. No long term homeless person goes entirely without money. (And even the sanyasins in India beg in the streets. Depending on their sect, some receive food, others receive money and/or food).

I was homeless for 4 months in Vancouver many years ago. I wasn't staying in a shelter, and got food from dumpsters and the local food bank. I slept in parks. After about  the first month a tooth got infected. I went to the dentist and she told me the tooth had to come out. I said I had no money. She offered me a discount on pulling the tooth, as well as a free one week cycle of antibiotics. But I needed a three week cycle to get the infection down to a point where she could pull the tooth, otherwise there was a good chance the infection would spread. So as a last resort, I called my parents to borrow money for the dentist and got my tooth pulled. One night, months later while sleeping in the park, I was woken up by a K-9 police dog dragging me through the bushes by my left arm. It was about 3 am and in my sleepy groggy state I first thought I was being mauled by a coyote or a bear. Then I stopped moving and my eyes were blinded by a flashlight. A cop was leaning over me demanding to know what I was doing there. Apparently there had been a robbery at a nearby house by the park, and I got sniffed out by the dog. The cops cuffed me, brought me into a van and rifled through my backpack while they bandaged my arm. Satisfied I wasn't the robber, they let me go. After that incident, I decided I better get off the streets. I guess this was 'cowardly' of me.

Instead of talking to people who may or may not be feeding you factual information, try actually going without money for a year or two. Live on the streets with absolutely no money or help from anyone. Then you'll know for yourself what I'm saying is true.
Some people choose death over "life" in this world. The Maze prisoners, Jesus Christ...

I stayed with a sadhu in India. He lived from alms whilst I knew him under a boulder in Bhagsunath, near Dharamsala. Years later I read about him on this internet. Indeed, it appears his lifestyle had been attacked by this world of sin and he had resorted to begging in the village, which in turn led to death from poor diet and drudgery. This world does indeed tend towards death and that is why eventually we must destroy this world.

I have also been beaten by cops, social workers and shrinks, had knives help to my temple, narrowly avoided land owners with guns. I'm still alive, as are you. Money is no object.

You sound just like some right wing libertarians I've argued with over the internet who eventually end up arguing that well, everything is a 'choice'. But then go on to complain about the tyranny of the government.

If everything is a choice (including death), then that makes a mockery of authoritarian coercion and oppression. Why destroy this world then? You choose to live in civilization. Just go without money and allow civilization to kill you.

After all, since everything is a choice,  you must already be living freely in a free world, right? No need to change it or destroy it.

Your post illustrates exactly why I left the spiritual new age milieu.
Yes, we are free. Uhuru

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