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Anti-civ journal
#11
Do you have any experience doing anything like this? I think we should definitely have someone who knows what they're doing on board.

My location is very unfortunate, in that Norway is prohibitively expensive for… well, most things, really. If we were to print it here, nobody would buy it, because in order to cover the costs, it would have to be way too expensive. I had a record label a decade ago, and people were generally unwilling to pay £4 PPD back then (int'l shipping), and I got some angry emails telling me what a fuckhead I was for charging so much—but I genuinely lost money on that adventure. I could certainly distro copies though, if someone else printed them and sent them in large numbers over to me.

As a side note: throughout my years noticed a lot of punks and anarchists (I suspect an overlap here) really hate letting people order in advance in order to essentially get some sort of "funding". But, personally, I think it's a wonderful way to do it. BAGR does this, as far as I know. Maybe KT can chime in with some advice for us? I'll email him a link to this thread.
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#12
Apologies in advance, I don't really have time to follow this up a lot, but if Alex gives me a nudge I'll do my best.
For those who don't know, I did Species Traitor journal from 2000-2005, which started as newsprint, went to photocopied zine, and ended with a bound journal. Was a major contributor to Green Anarchy for its entirety and I am the founding editor of Black and Green Review. I've been doing Black and Green Press since 2000.
That's my qualifications for my little bit of "how the sausage gets made" tempering here. That said, I think more print journals is ultimately a good thing. In so far as printing is an endeavor, "the market" largely believes otherwise for reasons I'll get into. But being anti-technology and particularly unwilling to cater to social media projects, it's an uphill battle. My hope is always that the tide will turn. From what I see and hear, it does in fits and starts. But doing a project like BAGR right now is probably 10x harder than it was getting ST 4 done and out there in 2005.

Detractor thread:
(Sat, 23 Dec 2017 22:33:34 +0000, 10:33 PM)Odin Wrote: I wasn't telling someone what 'they are', I was describing being against government, authority, hierarchy, etc, as a position generally called anarchist. The position (and not necessarily the person) is anarchist.
Definitions imposed don't constitute labels. IMO, there was no finer contributor to anarchism than Fredy Perlman. He intently did not call himself an anarchist. Changed nothing about his contributions.
From an outside perspective, particularly in a world where AnarchistNews exists, there's plenty of reasons why someone would look at anarchists and say, "fuck that shit" regardless of how much they align.
At times it almost feels like calling yourself an anarchist is just keeping the door open for a whole other round of shit talking and whatnot. I get why someone would avoid it completely. That said, it's not something I would personally do, but having been a predominant voice in anarcho-primitivism, it's pretty easy for me to feel at home using the term as a kind of short hand for "for more of this, see..."

(Tue, 09 Jan 2018 13:11:53 +0000, 01:11 PM)alexander Wrote: I'm interested in doing this as a print thing, so it seems useful to me to have various hubs throughout the world, each responsible for their own printing, but with various mutual aid going about. Furthermore, I am not sure I could be motivated to do this if nobody were interested locally (or at least nationally)—though if there were other active hubs, I could certainly be persuaded.
I would be remiss if I didn't warn you about being overly optimistic about this. When I started B&G in 2000, it was SOLELY to give some unified basis for all of the international GA/AP projects at the time, most of which were not English-based. I had hoped that B&G could coexist with presses in different parts of the world and translations happening quicker and easier (At that time, I think some of my writings were getting published in like 8 languages. I think the first book of my writings was in Serbian and JZ might have seen a copy once!).
That was at the turn of the millennium. Cue Green Scare and its international counterparts. Cue market crash. Surface rate shipping drops from the USPS options. In short, the networks we had established fell apart. The means we had to distribute physical materials back and forth were priced out. And a lot of the players locked up or forced to stay low.
The hope that this could happen again are slim. Print and distribution are incredibly expensive comparatively, but printing books and shipping them international is still cheaper than printing them in multiple places on multiple presses unless you're selling a lot of them, which is also unlikely in the current atmosphere.

CAVEAT: I'm talking about bound books from legit printers, not print-on-demand. Huge difference that way. But if you're going to take the time and energy to do something like this (far more than you can imagine), it's pointless to cut a corner to present it as something as impermanent as a POD book.

(Tue, 09 Jan 2018 13:11:53 +0000, 01:11 PM)alexander Wrote: It seems that going digital might be the simplest solution, at least in the beginning. But this brings many difficulties too. One is getting readers interested; I feel like a print journal has a lot more identity. Another is keeping contributors interested without the close bonds of the face-to-face. However, a web journal might be more practical than a print journal still. What do you think?
This is an easy one and since my critiques of the internet-social media, etc elaborate on it, I'll just say this:
Digital is far easier, but innately far less impacting/meaningful.
Do you want to create content or do you want to produce something long-lasting with the potential of demanding, by format, that it be taken more seriously?
Digital content will get more shares and likes. It will also be gone in a flash.

(Tue, 09 Jan 2018 13:11:53 +0000, 01:11 PM)alexander Wrote: I definitely want people to be able to contribute when they want, and then we'd do a peer review process, and just put it on the stack for the next issue. Then, when the stack is suitably filled up, we can release an issue. Just keep it dynamic and flowing.
Any project I do lasts best when I remove arbitrary deadlines. However, most people want deadlines even though few if any meet them. This is a good idea in theory and practice, but it's also tougher in process than it might seem.
For me, the way I work seems to be vastly different than most people. I spend a ton of time doing research and plotting so that I can try and get the writing done without pause. I write really, really fast, but the actual writing is the smallest fragment of the work. When it comes to edits and things like that, I can usually turn those around pretty damn quick and by the time I get there, I'm ready to see it through.
BAGR, as I envision it, is a complete whole. There are four sections; essays, discussion, field notes from the primal war, and reviews. It's not done till each section feels complete in relation to the others. To me, an issue is done when that happens.
That's something hard to articulate to other editors, but what it means is that, as the primary editor, bits and pieces can be left behind until the end. I usually leave a month or so buffer between the deadlines (when they exist) and when it goes to print. In my eyes, that's plenty of time to do final edits, discuss/argue, whatever.
But a lot of people don't work like I do. So that process can DRAG on. Badly. This issue (no 5), was a HUGE struggle in that regard. I was pulling teeth to get it finalized and went through a period of sheer hatred for when it felt impossible.
In the end, it came through even better than I had envisioned it. But it took about 4-5 months longer than I had anticipated and also came out at 280 pages (a lesson in economics I'll get to shortly).
So more of the cautionary side. I had originally intended my role in BAGR to be minimal so I could focus more on all the books I'm in the process of writing and putting out. Did not happen that way at all.
BAGR is effectively peer-reviewed and arduous on the research and citation side. We are easy on no one. Both JZ and myself have had to fight through editing for inclusion of a piece or more. Zero free passes. But it means a lot of work and having to be thick skinned. More so, it means you've got to spend a LOT of time editing and combing submissions that show some potential but aren't what you're looking for. I spend A LOT of time doing that before it even gets to other editors.
Long story short, if you have a vision of this being an easy going project, highly unlikely it will be. I spend about 50-60 hours per week on writing and projects. I think B&G has bought me a coffee once or twice in return. It's a massively thankless labor and constant uphill battle.

(Tue, 09 Jan 2018 18:34:43 +0000, 06:34 PM)Zhachev Wrote: I also like the idea of print only. We should perhaps maintain a blog which promotes certain news and discussion, perhaps an odd article from the journal could be transcribed for Web a few times a year.
This is effectively what we do. And I say this as someone who went from posting every writing online to posting almost none. Anything that winds up online mostly becomes content.
The battle is an anarchist one: the want to offer everything for free. But then you put a ton of time and energy into it, so you want it taken seriously. It used to be that posting something online didn't negate that. That happened because you'd sign on, post it up, they'd download it or print it and then it's in hand and being read or being repasted into zines and/or translated. Now, if it's online, people will read it there, or, more to the point, power-skim it. It becomes content.
I think finding a few short pieces from time to time is good to give an indication of what it is, but same deal, if you want to push the project, it inevitably has to enter the online bubbles. Problem is, once it's there, it's subjected to troll bait and straw person blah-blahing. Finding that balance between making something meaningful and letting the world of people who are sucked into the void aware of it is an increasingly difficult thing. Had I figured it out, I wouldn't be sweating as much as I am when I put another book printing bill on a credit card.

(Tue, 09 Jan 2018 19:45:54 +0000, 07:45 PM)alexander Wrote: Do you have any experience doing anything like this? I think we should definitely have someone who knows what they're doing on board.
;)
That said, I have less than zero time for any new projects. I only look at this forum when Alexander reminds me to. Between BAGR and the insane amount of book projects I have between the printer and the various stages of writing and completion, I just don't have time.
Hence, me giving a long public reply instead of just responding to Alex's email.

(Tue, 09 Jan 2018 19:45:54 +0000, 07:45 PM)alexander Wrote: My location is very unfortunate, in that Norway is prohibitively expensive for… well, most things, really. If we were to print it here, nobody would buy it, because in order to cover the costs, it would have to be way too expensive. I had a record label a decade ago, and people were generally unwilling to pay £4 PPD back then (int'l shipping), and I got some angry emails telling me what a fuckhead I was for charging so much—but I genuinely lost money on that adventure. I could certainly distro copies though, if someone else printed them and sent them in large numbers over to me.
Some things never change. The same is true for me. I have the books printed in Canada and on recycled paper. To lay it out, a copy of BAGR costs about $3.50 to print and have delivered to me. A mailer and shipping (just within the US) is roughly another $3.50. No 5 sells for $12 shipped.
There's a hilarious idea that people have where 1) publishers make money and 2) they're being overcharged for what they're getting.
To cover the cost of a print run, I have to sell almost half (I do a standard wholesale rate of 50% for orders of 5 or more). More than that when you count shipping. Every copy I give away (fair amount), increases that. So if I'm looking at a replacement rate on books, when I sell them all, I can fund another two books if I subsidize it with donations and selling shirts and shit.
I currently have no 5 at the press and my second book, Gathered Remains, about to go there. GR is 344 pages, so extrapolate those costs. I don't get to say this much, but GR is to date, the thing I can really look at and be genuinely proud of. I wreck myself for this shit and with the hovering debt, constant work, and little sleep, don't get the chance to reflect much. Putting all those printing costs on a credit card though is absolutely terrifying. I basically need those both to sell really, really well, because, just looking at my own work, I've got 3-4 other books and another issue of BAGR to put out this year, plus a couple more B&G titles that are being kicked around.
So people think it makes money: yeah, it costs money. Straight up.
People think they're entitled to it all for free? Look, outside of being a father, I spend more of my life as a writer than anything else. I would love to just have that be what supports my meager cost of living. Doubt it will ever happen. But I kill myself over this. The research, the arguments, the writing itself, the entire process and the stress of it all literally takes years off my life. I'm not asking to be paid for it, I'm just asking that I don't have to pay money out of my pocket to put it in your hands. Effectively I do, but considering the low prices of B&G titles compared to what they cost, I don't think I'm asking for much.
However, a world of anarchist entitlement in an era of content-based sharing don't mix well. At a certain point, it needs to be recalibrated or at least understood, which is why I have no problem sharing it here.

(Tue, 09 Jan 2018 19:45:54 +0000, 07:45 PM)alexander Wrote: As a side note: throughout my years noticed a lot of punks and anarchists (I suspect an overlap here) really hate letting people order in advance in order to essentially get some sort of "funding". But, personally, I think it's a wonderful way to do it. BAGR does this, as far as I know. Maybe KT can chime in with some advice for us? I'll email him a link to this thread.
Won't retread most of what I said above, but all clearly applies. Pre-orders can do okay. In this instance, no 5 is doing pretty well. Could always do better. But it's hard to compete with the immediate gratification that a world of internet-content and Amazon have to offer. People don't want to pre-order something that's coming out in a month, two weeks or a week. Becoming a cultural thing, even more so than an anarchist or scene thing.
I'm trying to drill that point in, but anytime I do, people will think it's marketing and scoff. Again, the costs for doing things in a print-and-mail world are ENTIRELY up front costs. Pre-orders are crucial if I want to avoid accruing more debt from interest (which I don't want to do).
I don't have a better answer than that unfortunately. I spend so much time writing and working that it fucking sucks to stop and ask for money or argue why this book has worth and people should be interested in reading and engaging it. The only way I do it is just by keeping my head to the ground.
There are more successful ways to do it. Crimethinc, for example, gets a fuck ton of funding and their titles sell really well, but it's bubblegum. They can catch the folks coming into "this world" and peddle through coyness in effective ways. It's playing to the bottom line and to the ground level of depth. Not interested, but all I can say is expect it to be hard, nearly impossible, exhausting and expensive as fuck. Ultimately, the hope is that other people realize that and it can continue existing and growing.
And don't take this as a complaint. BAGR is in that position, it grows in size and seems to expand its reach against all odds, but it's far slower and harder than it used to be. To say the least.
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#13
Sorry about the massive post above, but hope it's helpful.
A few more things;
- In terms of building a readership, I will say that the hard part is offering subscriptions. I offered them up until BAGR no 4 and people have asked, quite often, for me to bring them back.
The main reason why I won't is because BAGR was expensive and every year becomes increasingly more expensive. Because it grows in size and because the costs go up. When I set the rate for subscriptions, it was built around no 1 being cost out around 108 pages and being mailed in 2014. When it was done, it was roughly 130 pages and mailed out in 2015. Same for no 2. No 3 and 4 came out in 2016 and were both roughly 210 pages. No 5 is getting mailed out in a couple weeks at 280 pages.
When I got subscriptions for 4 issues for no 1, because there are so many upfront costs, that money is all in the printing and mailing of no 1 and needed to be recouped for 2-4 printing and mailing. Since the issue doubled in size, it also doubled in cost, plus mailing alone cost an additional $.50 per copy. By not anticipating that and wanting to keep prices as low as possible, every subscription for 4 issues cost B&G money roughly by number 3.
How to find a middle ground is something I haven't figured out yet. By all means, selling and pre-ordering per each book is massively easier to navigate on my end. I'm still open to better ways of doing that, but for now, I have none.
Moral of the story: be wary of offering subscriptions, but conscientious as to why people want them.

Fundraising:
This is a big one. I did a kickstarter for the novella, Liminal, that B&G published in 2014. Went really well. Did another for BAGR which also did really well. Raised many thousands of dollars and frankly, if it weren't for very generous donations like I got there and since, none of the B&G titles would exist.
As enormous as those funds were, when they get that high, platform and services fees end up taking a massive chunk of it. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
Also, I did things that meant using that money ineffectively. Went with the printer that B&G and a lot of other anarchists used to use (also based in Canada). They cost twice as much as another printer in Canada that does a hell of a good job and uses the same processes and supplies (all B&G books are printed on recycled paper). But that money could have lasted twice as long had I sought it out a little more. Also dropped a bunch of money into ads and things like that. How much any of it helped is hard to say, but quickly had wished I could have reallocated that money back into printing and shipping books.

It's hard to keep that balance of wanting things to be done well and consistent with beliefs, but no doubt other people/groups/what have you will make it look easier because they'll do things like get books printed in China on non-recycled stock, or significantly less-recycled stock. I imagine that I could get the costs halved if I was willing to do that, but not a compromise I'm willing to make. Whether people value that or not is another issue.

Whether I'd do another funding campaign? Probably not. The bait-and-switch that happened on social media makes for a really shitty and complicated environment for any of this. I despise FB, but still feel some degree of it is needed. I HATE that. I think we might have passed the tipping point on diminishing returns with it, but that change happened AFTER all other channels for spreading information were demolished.
It's a bit of a pickle, to say the least.
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#14
No problem.
I should state that I stopped considering anarchists my target audience quite a while ago. For BAGR, it's kind of unshakeable, to a degree, but while not being directly "conventional" or "mainstream" it's worth spending time on the "craft of writing" (for lack of better terms) to define your voice and approach rather than having to cater or pander. Not saying that's what you're suggesting, but I think good writing and solid points can move beyond any fronts. That's my hope at least.
By all means, create a Press. B&G is not a legal entity by any stretch. No bank account or anything. I've thought about doing it that way, trying to get grants, but that's more work until it pays off. I just haven't hit the point where I feel it's going to really make a difference yet.
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#15
Thanks KT for that massive reply! Really interesting to hear about the economic side of things, and especially the bit about how—in today's climate—putting it online relegates it into "content". That's sad, but ultimately I unfortunately think that you're right.

I'll have to think about what you said a bit; let it simmer before I post something in-depth here. Because you really covered a lot of ground in here. Thank you so much!


@Zhachev I would like to have essays and articles use more academic language, and less propaganda. That's not to say that it needs to be dry or anything, but I sometimes roll my eyes reading certain anarchist literature, which to me reads like "OK so anarchists reject that stuff because anarchists anarchistically anarchist it instead for anarchism because anarchism wants anarchy so anarchists needs to anarchistically anarchist it", and it honestly just looks dumb to me. And, often, it feels like some anarchist writing is just a sales pitch for their particular silver bullet. (Red anarchism is especially bad when it comes to this.)

As for printing, I'd like to get someone local to whoever's doing printing to do it on recycled paper. (I feel somewhat strongly about the recycled bit.) My experience, doing the record label, is that if you actually go, in person, to the printer (obviously not a behemoth printing press, but something quite a bit smaller), and talk to them, you can get much better prices. In my case I actually got a really good price, I think mostly because they thought it was fun to do what to them was a tiny niche project (I only needed about 5 thick A4 sheets per release) for a change of pace. I'd like to have a good relationship to our printer, not interact with some faceless corporation that gets their slaves to do it. But, of course, if that turns out to not be an option, it's not an option, and we need to think of something else.
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#16
Thanks Kevin, great points. Appreciate all the hard work you do, along with the editorial struggles you endure and financial burdens you face.

Some thoughts:

Whether we like it or not, the world is going digital. This is where people's eyeballs are looking. Almost nobody goes to bookstores anymore, including anarchist bookstores. My city of over 1 million has less than 8 bookstores, mostly used.

Sales of e-books has steadily risen over the past 10 years and now account for over 25% of all books sold. Although e-book sales declined over the past couple of years, this has to do with Amazon losing their fight with book publishers over what price Amazon can charge. Before, Amazon used to radically discount their e-book prices in order to stimulate Kindle device sales. Now, Amazon has to charge whatever the e-book publisher sets their price at. As a result, Amazon started discounting their print books instead, to stimulate sales to make up for higher e-book prices. 50% - 70% of all fiction books are sold digitally. For non-fiction, it's about 15%. The real growth seems to be in self-publishing.

http://observer.com/2017/01/author-earni...ook-world/

https://www.janefriedman.com/myth-print/

All major newspapers have online editions now. Most people get some or all of their news online.

All academic journals have online editions now as well, and while many of them publish both print and digital versions, more and more journals are going digital exclusively. At most University libraries, a growing number of academic journals are available only online. A lot of the print journals are actually being stored off site. Nearly all new (i.e. approx. within the last 5 years) academic books at my University library are only available online through the University portal. You can only borrow them electronically. By way of metaphor to illustrate how widespread the digital culture is, the University library building I go to is called the Taylor Digital Library...lol

At public libraries, the number of e-books is mushrooming. My local public library estimates their e-book lending to be about 30% of total. About half of those are audiobooks.

Google has invested heavily in their Book Project of scanning all the world's known books.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2...settlement

The Anarchist Library is adding more and more titles everyday. They have about 3,000 books and pamphlets online at this point.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/latest/1

On the other hand, printed books are never going away completely, just like there are still vinyl records and landline phones. There will always be paper books for those who want them. I definitely prefer the feel and experience of actual paper books too, and it's easier on the eyes. But the worldwide shift to digital reading is growing and doesn't show any sign of stopping.

I didn't quite understand what was meant by the idea of e-books or online content being 'innately far less impacting/meaningful' and 'less serious'. There are lots of websites that are taken quite seriously, from WIRED, to Wikipedia, Snopes, NY Review of Books, Times Literary Supplement, and many academic journals. Even when we communicate on forums like these, we often cite online sources to support our arguments.

Or by the idea that online content "will also be gone in a flash". I think this is certainly true in terms of the immediate popular relevance of certain content. But at the same time, once something is on the internet, it seems to be pretty much there...forever. It's actually quite hard getting something off the internet if you don't want it to be there. And most of what starts out as print material eventually migrates and winds up on the internet anyway.


On balance, I personally prefer e-books, since I read a lot. Despite some negative aspects to e-books, I can at least easily store a bunch of books and journal papers on a device or computer and carry them around with me. It's just so much more convenient. A few years ago, I used to have three tall bookcases full of books. Then one day as I was contemplating getting another bookcase I realized I was running out of room. On top of that I was planning to move apartments. The amount of boxes my books were taking up whenever I moved was also becoming a hassle. So over the past couple of years I've slowly been scanning my book collection, and now I'm down to about one and a half bookcases worth of books. So whenever I order issues of BAGR now, I try to get the PDFs. It's waaay less hassle, and much easier to read and look up keywords. For instance, if I'm trying to remember what Kevin Tucker said in BAGR #3 about the Mbuti and playing games, I'd have to flip through a whole bunch of physical pages in that issue, scanning manually with my eyes looking for the word 'Mbuti' or maybe 'games'. This can take ten minutes or longer, especially if I don't remember which section or essay it was in. With the PDF version, I just type a keyword search for 'Mbuti' or 'games' and it instantly goes to that section and highlights the word. This way I also learn that 'Oh yeah, it was in his essay Hooked on a Feeling'. It takes five seconds tops.

As for ecological footprint, there seems to be little difference between printed books and e-books in terms of which is greener. I get that there is some kind of nostalgia for printed paper books in this digital world (and as I mentioned, I do enjoy printed books more overall), but when you think about it, printed books are not necessarily any less 'technological' or industrial than e-books. A whole lot of technology still goes into printed books, not least of which is the fact that the content for printed books is still set up on computers using desktop publishing software. Computers control the printing process as well as the manufacturing of paper at pulp mills. Then there are the toxic inks, the toxic chemicals used to treat the paper, the logging of trees (using equipment running on fossil fuels), the trucks that ship the logs, the trucks that ship the paper, the trucks that ship the ink, the trucks that ship the books, and the trucks that deliver the books to us. One has to consider the whole manufacturing cycle of how books get made. E-books on the other hand, do generate more GHG emissions per book, but this can be reduced when the number of e-books gets scaled up. So, it's still comparing technology with technology. And keep in mind, for 95% of human evolution, people were illiterate and didn't read.

https://theecoguide.org/books-vs-ebooks-...e-decision

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalre...nment.aspx

http://www.greenlivingonline.com/article...tal-choice

https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/sch...aper-2.pdf


If you want to start an anti-civ journal, you need a clear approach and some idea of what you want to accomplish with it. That's why I initially asked about what your vision was. Because, as Kevin laid out in great detail, it's a hell of a lot of work. You can't just back into it, or go in half-assed and 'see what happens'. It will cost you money, time, energy, and possibly even friends.
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#17
Y'all win. Uploading E Book versions for all B&G titles. Some are up, others might take a bit, but will have this as an option moving forward. 
http://www.blackandgreenreview.org/shop
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#18
(Sat, 03 Feb 2018 05:56:06 +0000, 05:56 AM)Zhachev Wrote:
(Sat, 03 Feb 2018 05:14:35 +0000, 05:14 AM)KT Wrote: Y'all win. Uploading E Book versions for all B&G titles. Some are up, others might take a bit, but will have this as an option moving forward. 
http://www.blackandgreenreview.org/shop

Really cool. I'll be grabbing a few plus some stickers when I can. Great to see you around, hopefully you can find some leisure time to chat it up with us here...lots I've been wanting to run past. All the best and cheers.

Thanks. Probably best to hit me with an email when there's something I should reply to: feraledge@gmail.com
I planned on having a little down time after completing two books (BAGR 5 and Gathered Remains [due back from the press in less than two weeks]), but this other book that I've got well underway is nagging at me, so I've been beyond knee deep in it and very eager to get it done too. Then the next. Then the next. Then another. Then another BAGR...
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#19
Any thoughts on a title for the journal?

My son came up with one possibilty:

THE END
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#20
(Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:04:30 +0000, 04:04 PM)Zhachev Wrote: Yeah, haha, much modern anarchist writing is indeed the way Alex refers. What interests me in part (and greatly) about this prospect is we could have a chance to define ourselves through our writing. Alex mentions propaganda. I was thinking more of anti-propaganda: we could try and rely on as little ideology as possible.
Sounds good.

(Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:04:30 +0000, 04:04 PM)Zhachev Wrote: We should discuss the topic of recycling and localism in a political manner more deeply.
Sure.

(Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:16:40 +0000, 08:16 PM)Odin Wrote: Whether we like it or not, the world is going digital. This is where people's eyeballs are looking. Almost nobody goes to bookstores anymore, including anarchist bookstores. My city of over 1 million has less than 8 bookstores, mostly used.

Sales of e-books has steadily risen over the past 10 years and now account for over 25% of all books sold. Although e-book sales declined over the past couple of years, this has to do with Amazon losing their fight with book publishers over what price Amazon can charge. Before, Amazon used to radically discount their e-book prices in order to stimulate Kindle device sales. Now, Amazon has to charge whatever the e-book publisher sets their price at. As a result, Amazon started discounting their print books instead, to stimulate sales to make up for higher e-book prices. 50% - 70% of all fiction books are sold digitally. For non-fiction, it's about 15%. The real growth seems to be in self-publishing.

All major newspapers have online editions now. Most people get some or all of their news online.

All academic journals have online editions now as well, and while many of them publish both print and digital versions, more and more journals are going digital exclusively. At most University libraries, a growing number of academic journals are available only online. A lot of the print journals are actually being stored off site. Nearly all new (i.e. approx. within the last 5 years) academic books at my University library are only available online through the University portal. You can only borrow them electronically. By way of metaphor to illustrate how widespread the digital culture is, the University library building I go to is called the Taylor Digital Library...lol

At public libraries, the number of e-books is mushrooming. My local public library estimates their e-book lending to be about 30% of total. About half of those are audiobooks.

Google has invested heavily in their Book Project of scanning all the world's known books.

The Anarchist Library is adding more and more titles everyday. They have about 3,000 books and pamphlets online at this point.

All true. But all, in my opinion, irrelevant to what I want to do. It is about as convincing as trying to convince me that anti-civ is fruitless, because civ is "more popular than ever". (I don't mean to draw a perfect analogy, I just mean to demonstrate why I think your arguments bear little fruit on what I end up doing.)

(Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:16:40 +0000, 08:16 PM)Odin Wrote: I didn't quite understand what was meant by the idea of e-books or online content being 'innately far less impacting/meaningful' and 'less serious'. There are lots of websites that are taken quite seriously, from WIRED, to Wikipedia, Snopes, NY Review of Books, Times Literary Supplement, and many academic journals. Even when we communicate on forums like these, we often cite online sources to support our arguments.

Or by the idea that online content "will also be gone in a flash". I think this is certainly true in terms of the immediate popular relevance of certain content. But at the same time, once something is on the internet, it seems to be pretty much there...forever. It's actually quite hard getting something off the internet if you don't want it to be there. And most of what starts out as print material eventually migrates and winds up on the internet anyway.

I've felt KT's point personally, as someone who has done a music blog, and, briefly, a music label. I've also followed the music industry to some extent. Everything is "content". People put on playlists as background music. I've had several conversations with people about this, and, in my experience, KT is bang on.

However, I'm not going to dive too deeply into it here.

As such, I'm not going to address the other stuff you wrote about the e-book debate either. Sufficed to say: I, personally, prefer books. I do not like e-books. I would be reluctant to reading our journal, if it were an e-journal. That said, I would not be opposed to reading it, if I found out that it was a good journal. Similarly, I would prefer to not do an e-journal, but I am not opposed to making an e-journal, if this is what people are more interested in doing.

Please note that I don't think your points are uninteresting or bad—but it's been a long while since you made them, and I haven't had the time to address them, and it doesn't look like I will get the time to sit down and engage you thoroughly on these things; at least not anytime soon.

(Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:16:40 +0000, 08:16 PM)Odin Wrote: If you want to start an anti-civ journal, you need a clear approach and some idea of what you want to accomplish with it. That's why I initially asked about what your vision was. Because, as Kevin laid out in great detail, it's a hell of a lot of work. You can't just back into it, or go in half-assed and 'see what happens'. It will cost you money, time, energy, and possibly even friends.
I don't want a blueprint. I want to meet some friends (or future friends) who are interested in doing an anti-civ journal—nothing more specific than that. The "specifics", such as they are, I want us to deal with organically. That is not to say that I want to dive into releasing the journal before we have a very clear idea about the issues which you are raising.

(Thu, 11 Jan 2018 00:07:47 +0000, 12:07 AM)Zhachev Wrote: One idea would be to create really slick PDF files. I have a bit of a background in graphic design and commercial art. We could then place them on old tiny USBs, like 256 mb sticks which (warning: pure speculation to follow) go for like maybe $0.05 bulk. Then we could mail those -- all the advantages of sending out a physical journal, with much of the cost eliminated. We could do a deal for people who ship back USBs for reuse.
My gut feeling is that this scheme will not be worth it. A print journal or a purely digital journal seems like the best options. (Or a print journal which is digitised at some point.)

(Sun, 04 Feb 2018 10:22:21 +0000, 10:22 AM)KyXen Wrote: Any thoughts on a title for the journal?

My son came up with one possibilty:

THE END
I have a somewhat similar idea that I want to use for some project at some point: Om hundrede år. (In a hundred years.) It is derived from a Hamsun poem. The full sentence is: «Om hundrede år er alting glemt» (In a hundred years, all is forgotten.) Hamsun is referring to the fact that no one will remember you when you're gone. My take on it is that in a hundred years, all is forgotten, because the biosphere has collapsed, so no one is left to remember you.

(Fri, 16 Feb 2018 00:25:54 +0000, 12:25 AM)Zhachev Wrote: I think there are basically three journals/zines relevant to this project right now, in the sense of overlap of topics of interest. Two immediately worth mentioning: Black and Green Review and Black Seed. None of this is news to folks, I'm aware. But I personally feel there is plenty of intellectual space for another project. I have critiques of the aforementioned projects which I don't need to air out here, or now, but I'm quickly realizing they would not be the place for my writing. I'm all in for this no matter what form it takes. We should do an Anti-civ journal.
Full agreement here.

I will stress the point that I see this as a project between friends, and that the friendships forged are primary, the "product" is secondary. That's my attitude.
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